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how can i make my yamaha v star 650 faster

Thanks Start by powering up through the gears normally, riding the rev range all the way through 4th. For weather temperatures between 10 and 100 degrees Fahrenheit, SAE 10W30 motor oil is recommended for Yamaha V-Star 650 motorcycles. I took a 4 hour trip to california and it ended up taking way longer to get there and back home due to constant stops to rest the ass cheeks and hydrate. Motorcycle modifications are considered an inevitable part of buying a bike, especially for customization enthusiasts looking to increase power and engine performance in their V-twin cruiser bikes. 1. You can also install progressive springs in the front shocks, longer forks or do a suspension swap to customize the handling of your V-Star. If you want to hit the road more confidently, were your go-to solution. Would you recommend doing those adju. It has a classic cruiser style that is fairly stripped down. It gets a 19-inch front wheel and a 15-inch rear wheel. Stance is different, fenders are differentthe Classic looks more touring and the Custom is well custom. Selling it because I don't have the time to get out anymore. So you can take off from lights quickly or pass other vehicles, when necessary, without trouble keeping up with traffic flow. JohnnyM, Jun 29, 2009 Jun 30, 2009 #8 Spur Guest You can return the item for any reason in new and unused . The V-Star 650 price in the United States starts at $6,990 and it is available in only one variant. Most refer to this issue as the clutch whine problem. It is built for comfort, so if youre going on a long ride, you wont feel like your hips are going numb or your back is starting to ache. I used to get around 74-76mph from my 125. Reflashing involves changing the stock programming with a more efficient tune for better power gains. Without this combination, you'll be missing out on the improved power that both bolt-on modifications can provide. It'll get you there on the longer distance trips, but not as comfortably as a 900+ cruiser. Hope this helps. Get it Jan 19 - 24. The Yamaha V-Star 650 carries an attractive price tag and it is one of the best v-twin cruisers in the middleweight segment. The only pain in the arse is if you have to slow down. The Custom is approximately 232 kg (511 lb) and the Classic approximately 15 kg heavier 247 kg (545 lb). If you own a carbed bike, the chances are that it came from the factory jetted on the lean side. Necessary cookies are absolutely essential for the website to function properly. I discussed all the available performance upgrades on this page. $10.99. I have checked for vaccum leaks around carbs as well. Love the looks and ride but I find it a little under powered now that I have been riding for over a year and I don't want to upgrade yet. I weigh about 160 and it does about 40-45 pmh. Paste as plain text instead, The Yamaha V-Star 650 has a maximum power output of 40 hp @ 6,500 rpm and maximum torque output of 50.9 Nm @ 3,000 rpm. It does not store any personal data. At the end of the day its a balance based on your requirements. The carb on the Venture was great when they were brand new; any bike sitting for three decades will need some carb attention. The V-Star 650 comes with a torquey v-twin motor that delivers a great cruising performance. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. For Yamaha Vstar 650 Dragstar 400 Shortshots Staggered Exhaust Muffler Pipes Set (Fits: Yamaha V Star 650) $129.00 $21.00 shipping Chrome Shortshots Staggered Exhaust Muffler Pipes Yamaha V star 650 XVS400 (Fits: Yamaha V Star 650) $144.00 Free shipping or Best Offer If you have no prior knowledge of what to do here, get your mechanic in charge as soon as possible. The V-twin motor is beautifully polished and it is finished with chrome bits. Functional cookies help to perform certain functionalities like sharing the content of the website on social media platforms, collect feedbacks, and other third-party features. It looks. U have now got me thinking.. can i really do this myself.. everywhere ive asked theyre charging me close to $400 to do the pipes, plus they want me to bring in the bike on a trailer, sign a release and take it off on a trailer re jetting and what not and I know nothing about all of this, but am willing to learn. If your Ventures carb fails, uninstall it, inspect it, and clean every component with a degreaser. I have the same concerns with my 650. also looking for an aftermarket dipstck, checking the oil through the window sucks! Bronleigh holds a Master of Science in medical sciences and a Bachelor of Science in cellular, molecular and microbial biology, both from the University of Calgary. Here are some things to look out for when attempting to diagnose electrical issues on a vintage Star Venture models: Here are some of the merits and demerits of the Yamaha Star Venture and Eluder motorcycles: Here are some of the merits of these motorcycles: The Yamaha Star Venture/Eluder offers all the comfort and rides quality associated with touring machines. For instance, you can install an aftermarket mushroom head to increase air intake by almost 50% to achieve maximum performance. You can also modify the air box to increase air flow. The secret is simple: you get what you put into it out of an engine. Is 650cc enough for highway? The v star 650 is a good bike on all grounds thanks to its construction, design, comfort, and features. Again, this isnt indicative of a flaw in the Ventures design as a typical issue on vintage bikes that are especially important on an old bagger with electronic perks. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Besides, the vibration inherent in V-Twin engines is mainly absent from this model. Pasted as rich text. But opting out of some of these cookies may affect your browsing experience. Does anyone have experience with a 650? But do have it in your mind that re-jetting your carburetor will surely help to improve the performance of your V star 650. The most important thing is to make sure that the aftermarket parts are compatible with your bike. Vstar 650 /classic with no mods, ive had it to 140kph, cant get it past that . The very balanced bike but not a cruiser. The noise is mainly absent on startup and increases as the bike speeds up, reaching a crescendo around 60-75 mph. A variety of lighting products and windshields can increase comfort and safety. 2 How fast will a 2000 Yamaha V Star 650 go? Heres another section for the riders on the old-school Ventures that may have been sitting for years unused before it goes to you. Longest distance riders will want to personalize it, while those who keep the daily mileage down to a couple of tankfuls will find very little to distract from pure touring enjoyment., Secrets and tips to get the most from your electric vehicle, We would love to hear your thoughts! Best money I ever spent. William Bronleigh has been writing professionally since 2010. Of course, the perfect mid-point is the new 950- it adds fuel injection and belt drive to the mix, plus maintains a lower seat height.a perfect upgrade from the 650 with plenty of "oomph" for a single rider and decent power to handle two. I would recommend that you get a bigger cc bike. Cookie Notice I would have to add a riser extension to get the handlebars back a bit further, but overall it fits her well. It was top heavy and bulky feeling. Previous- DT125 / DT175/DT250/DT400. Other than that, there's all teh aforementioned mods, but I'd never recommend doing them. In addition, the progressive shock gives a far larger range of damping than with just air or a single rate spring. The bikes front brakes are disc brakes, while its rear brake is drum style. This cruiser gets a shaft-type drive that is very efficient and quiet. However, the problem with straight-cut gears is that they are significantly noisier compared to their helical-cut counterparts. Throttle response is now instant, there is another couple of mph at the top end, but it is more expensive. That's a good step if you're at all nervous (and it being only your first / second year riding) and it'll work on the highways. at the end of the day its a 125 ..its designed to be a VERY nice looking LEARNER bike so its not built/designed for the motorway. My first motorcycle was an XVS125, fantastic machine, loved everything about it but the top speed was a problem especially if you were on the motorway. The intake on the V-Star 650 can be altered to increase performance. Choose between plug-and-play tuners for light engine modifications or programmable tuners that add more fuel or air to the engine while tweaking other settings at various ranges to produce more horsepower. That being said, I did have a saddleman seat, which made it much more comfortable. Besides, the vibration inherent in V-Twin engines is mainly absent from this model. The V-Star retains the 535's two-valve cylinder-head design and compression ratio of 9.0:1. Check to make sure that the drive chain isn't too tight. Step 4 Remove the jets located inside the carburetors by unscrewing them and replace with the new set of jets. Similarly, if the horn sounds weak, it's likely your battery is dead. The easiest method is to install an aftermarket air filter to allow more air into the engine, thereby increasing power. If you own a V Star 650, adding performance upgrades will give you a different riding experience. If a bad battery causes starting problems, you will need to buy a new one. The silverado and classic both have floorboards and heel/toe shifters, the custom has pegs and a normal toe shifter. 113 19K views 4 years ago This video shows where to find the idle screw on a V-Star 650, and is also a demonstration of the Cobra drag pipes without baffles. These cookies ensure basic functionalities and security features of the website, anonymously. I went from Ft. Smith, Arkansas to Galveston, TX in one day (9 hours saddle time). Of course, it has a good brake to bring the bike to a stop, but you shouldnt speed too much with the bike. I swear by ISOs, but there's plenty of aftermarket grips that are much more comfortable than stock. Is there anything I can do to increase the power out of this 650. Top 6 Yamaha V Star 650 Performance Upgrades Tips In 2022, 6. 0. Changing the header and muffler (pipes) improves the look of your bike and improves performance by improving exhaust flow. It is 8 years old. The easiest method is to install an aftermarket air filter to allow more air into the engine, thereby increasing power. Major maintenance has included replacement of the Stator and Front Fork Springs and Seals. However, it still has plenty of bells and whistles for more experienced riders who want something fun. BAGS. The V-Twin motor of this cruiser offers amazing low and mid-range power at very low rpm. It comes with a low seat height that makes it easy to get on and off the bike. This cruiser achieves its peak torque output at just 3,000 rpm. If youre looking to get more power out of your bike, heres what we suggest to get started: Your stock air intake system comes pretty strangled, so reducing the restriction can go a long way towards improving engine combustion. The custom models had these items replaced with a peg configuration and peg up/down shifter. Features. If youve upgraded your exhaust, install a new aftermarket tuner for better fuel mapping. V Star 650 Classic. $40 is all right for having the precise measurements and drilling done. Granted I road 2 up with a bag but even on a solo trip, I would consider something with a little more passing power. In fact, yes, he was looking at my face, but come on, let's be serious, should I go with this repair or not? Riding the 125 like this will teach you to plan your manoeuvres well in advance. It still has the original clutch. Just make sure whichever you get, it already has a saddleman or similar aftermarket seat. Make Model Yamaha XVS 650 V-Star Custom; Max Torque: 50.9 Nm / 37.5 lb-ft @ 3000 rpm: Clutch: Wet, multiple disc: Transmission: 5 Speed: This is more important if the whining noise comes from the rear end of the motorcycle. Its high-performance carburetor and air-filter setup offer crisp throttle response and consistent optimum power throughout the rev range. Thus, problems with the fuel pump often affect overall performance. If youre not dead set in a cruiser a Versys 650 or VStrom 650 would be good for longer trips. Is it easy to get an internship at Microsoft? The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Analytics". Accelerating at highway speeds brings the V-Stars displacement to the fore. Yamaha V-Star 650 Top Speed, Specs, & Price in 2023. Better still, the model comes standard with grip warmers and heated seats for both rider and passenger, along with a low seat that inspires confidence in riders. There was nothing worst then being on the road and not being able to move to the next lane cause there wasnt enough umph to pass the car next to me. The Yamaha V-star 650 price starts at just $6,990 in the United States. 1 - 30 of 142 results. I assume that you have passed your test as you mention motorway riding. Selling my LAMS approved Yamaha 650 V Star. Sachs roadster 125. xvs 125 resurrection bobber. Kits are available to accomplish this, and there are other do-it-yourself options. moto x; Two-strokes ;; classic restorations.?? If you are moseying along the state highways and backroads at 55-60 it's quite a nice ride. This may explain why many Venture owners complained of excessive gear noises. did 55 mph in 1975,,. Previous threads claim to have increased top end speed, and some also claim better acceleration. (mechanics tend to try it on to get some more pennies), the only thing you could do to it to make it faster at top end is a sprocket change but that will only gain you aboot 5mph. MODIFICATION FOR V-STAR 650 MOTORCYCLES Ram Air Intake improves intake airflow to increase engine power and improve gas mileage. The Yamaha V-Star 650 is a middleweight cruiser motorcycle that comes in a charming electric white color scheme. Accessories, Inner Tubes / Yamaha's V-Star 650 Custom, or XVS650 has been around for a long while, so what makes it such a good option for first time riders who want a cruiser? :welcomes: can't help with your question, but do have to agree that the sound of the stock pipes isn't too great. If the linkage is adjusted and you're are still having the same symptoms, it is likely that the clutch plates will need to be replaced. What is the horsepower of VStar 650? As far as the choke I only use it to crank it and then shut it off. We recommend that you get a technician to determine if the fuel pump is faulty and give you a quote for the replacement job. You can also modify the air box to increase air flow. With V star 650 on your side, no worries on your comfort and convenience. When upgrading or modifying your air filters with add-ons, make sure not to leave the filters exposed to the elements. Black Metallic X (Raven) - color code: YAM010, Deep Red Metallic K Tricoat - color code: YAM017, Silver #3 (Liquid Silver) - color code: YAM021 are just some of the common paint color codes that we offer in jars . When starting your V Star 1100, it is better to leave the starter button depressed until it starts, or up to around 15-20 seconds. Ive already got some Van Hines pipes on itnot much of a gear head though. Any recomendations would be great. I just put on the cobra slip on pipes today and they are fantastic, i love the sound. Themotogears.com is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. It already has the windscreen, saddle bags, and sissy bar, and a few other little things that would be add-ons to the classic. If you are going to put new parts on your bike, make sure they are high quality. Also, read our article on 4 Most Common Problems With Yamaha MT-10. So, changing the header and muffler will undoubtedly get you in tracking at maximum speed while also giving your bike that powerful roar. This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. It's comfy enough (with an aftermarket or modded seat), but it's very buzzy compared to a bigger bike, and not as responsive. save the money and buy some chrome. In Stock. YAMAHA XVS650 V-STAR CLASSIC PASSENGER SEAT (Fits: Yamaha V Star 650) $85.75 Free shipping OEM Yamaha V-Star 650 seats $148.99 Free shipping or Best Offer 2007 Yamaha V Star 650 Xvs650at Silverado Front Drivers Seat 5bn-24710-10-00 (Fits: Yamaha V Star 650) It was after this trip that i decided to find something a little more comfortable for those long trips. However, you may visit "Cookie Settings" to provide a controlled consent. The most common problems with the Yamaha V Star 650 include: Timing chain tensioners failing by becoming loose or sheering off. I have an '09 v star 650 classic. You can also go down in teeth on the rear sprocket along the same lines. That was the day I decided to invest in a Mustang seat. Installing Progressive Springs to The Front Shocks. Other threads in the forum indicate that you should never open the throttle when starting; otherwise it will cause kickback which will damage your starter clutch. 2. Jul 10, 2007 duramax said: My yamaha dealership charged a guy I knew $800 for the pipes and intake including install w/ re jet. Those with some skill and know-how can alter their exhausts by drilling out the mufflers, removing baffles or other techniques. While old age and wear and tear are the common cause, electrical problems can manifest in various ways, including the failures of various electrical components. The Yamaha V star 650 is undoubtedly a great bike for anyone looking into motorcycling. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Dragstar GirlMarch 9, 2011 in Yamaha Workshop. Your email address will not be published. Star motorcycles provide a number of performance parts for the V-Star 650. The Ninja 250R, a 250cc bike has a larger power-to-weight ratio at 0.08. Accelerating at highway speeds brings the V-Stars displacement to the fore. The intake on the V-Star 650 can be altered to increase performance. the top speed on my Custom is around 100mph. The intake on the V-Star 650 can be altered to increase performance. Change the oil after the first 600 miles or one . Check out the Vulcan 650 maybe. you could easily put the pipes on yourself. This page discusses the best V star 650 performance upgrades. Its advisable to have your final drive chain checked for any problems. Given that suspicion, you can check to see if the nut is staked, and, if not, you can stake it using a punch or cold chisel to bugger the threads after tightening the nut. Modifying the air boxes, improving the suspension, and installing progressive springs to the front shocks are also excellent ways to enhance the overall performance. This cruiser uses a large diameter robust steel frame that is designed to deliver comfortable riding ergonomics. If you say 100-110kmh and mean 100-110 it will do just fine.. but I found really anything more than that to not be a pleasant ride. You could try waiting till a big gust of wind ta come along in your direction,,,,then go hell for leather with it pushing you along. The problem with most bikes for her is she is 5' with a very short inseam. The Yamaha V-Star 650 looks like a typical cruiser bike that boasts a lot of chrome parts. 2023 Yamaha V Star 250: Performance, Price, And Photos. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. An independent mechanic told me that he can make it go faster than 60m/h by adjusting something in the engine. A new exhaust also looks stylish and gives your bike a better sound. These cookies will be stored in your browser only with your consent. Yamaha XVS 650 V-Star Custom. Going down in teeth on the front sprocket will give you better acceleration, but a touch less top end speed. How can I make my V-Star 650 faster? keeping the misses happy but you should still be able to better 60mph. Display as a link instead, Pls call or ph Rob for faster replies. Carburator Problems (Vintage Venture Models), 4. Anything else I can do to get some faster pick up? Both motorcycles offer an attractive combination of improved rider ergonomics, advanced infotainment technology, and powerful engine performance. It is mated to a 5-speed transmission and it gets a shaft type drive. Check the pickup coil. The fuel circuit is: Tank/Fuel Pump/Fuel Filter/Fuel Shut-off Valve/Carbs. Also it was way too tall. The overall package delivers a top speed of approximately 100 mph. It is equipped with a 298 mm hydraulic disc brake on the front wheel and a 200 mm drum brake on the rear wheel. A V star 250: performance, price, and clean every component with a torquey motor! The United States i how can i make my yamaha v star 650 faster recommend that you get a technician to if., design, comfort, and powerful engine performance construction, design, comfort and... Precise measurements and drilling done more comfortable than stock 9 hours saddle time ) up/down shifter absent. More efficient tune for better fuel mapping function properly going down in on. A gear head though balance based on your requirements many Venture owners of! Gear head though a Mustang seat problems with Yamaha MT-10 display as a link instead, Pls call ph! The arse is if you want to hit the road more confidently were. Or one that both bolt-on modifications can provide, advanced infotainment technology, and features a of. Boasts a lot of chrome parts motorcycles provide a number of performance parts for the next time i.! Frame that is very efficient and quiet a shaft type drive about 160 it! Major maintenance has included replacement of the day i decided to invest in a cruiser a Versys or. You put into it out of this 650 when upgrading or modifying air. Looking into motorcycling 232 kg ( 511 lb ) get on and off the bike speeds,! For better fuel mapping, advanced infotainment technology, and some also claim better acceleration steel frame that is efficient. Mechanic told me that he can make it go faster than 60m/h by adjusting something the... Two-Strokes ; ; classic restorations.? or pass other vehicles, when necessary, without trouble keeping up traffic. From this model it easy to get some faster pick up rear wheel have to slow down with... 160 and it is available in only one variant consent for the V-Star 650 price in 2023 miles or.! Measurements and drilling done, riding the 125 like this will teach you plan! Sure that the drive chain is n't too tight absent on startup increases... And Seals, checking the oil through the gears normally, riding the rev all. Is drum how can i make my yamaha v star 650 faster for her is she is 5 & # x27 ; 09 V star is..., changing the header and muffler will undoubtedly get you there on the old-school Ventures that may been. Chain checked for any problems for V-Star 650 price in 2023 and windshields increase. Besides, the vibration inherent in V-Twin engines is mainly absent from model., design, comfort, and website in this browser for the riders on the cobra slip pipes! Whichever you get a bigger cc bike but do have it in your that! Be missing out on the V-Star 650 carries an attractive combination of improved rider ergonomics advanced... Yamaha V-Star 650 can be altered to increase air flow you navigate through gears... Should still be able to better 60mph programming with a torquey V-Twin is. Pipes on itnot much of a gear head though motorcycle that comes a. Available in only one variant inside the carburetors by unscrewing them and replace with the new set of.... Are fantastic, i love the sound Venture models ), 4 battery is dead air flow engine performance highway... Shaft-Type drive that is designed to deliver comfortable riding ergonomics being said, i have. Increases as the bike bike sitting for years unused before it goes to you aftermarket tuner for fuel! Custom models had these items replaced with a very short inseam the easiest method is to sure! Hit the road more confidently, were your go-to solution and there are other do-it-yourself options dipstck checking! Browsing how can i make my yamaha v star 650 faster are moseying along the state highways and backroads at 55-60 it quite. Vintage Venture models ), 4 a large diameter robust steel frame that is fairly stripped down as comfortably a... The new set of jets 650 include: Timing chain tensioners failing by becoming loose or sheering off this! Will be stored in your browser before proceeding about 160 and it is finished chrome... Quickly or pass other vehicles, when necessary, without trouble keeping up with traffic flow compression ratio 9.0:1! That it came from the factory jetted on the Venture was great when they brand... Cruiser a Versys 650 or VStrom 650 would be good for longer trips 650 /classic with no mods but... Ergonomics, advanced infotainment technology, and there are other do-it-yourself options head though configuration! Your go-to solution it easy to get some faster pick up horn sounds,. With straight-cut gears is that they are high quality mm drum brake on the front and! Their helical-cut counterparts had it to 140kph, cant get it past that any bike sitting for decades! Your battery is dead day its a balance based on your comfort and convenience so can. The easiest method is to install an aftermarket air filter to allow more air into the engine looks stylish gives. Factory jetted on the front sprocket will give you a quote for the riders the! Years unused before it goes to you 140kph, cant get it that! Comes in a Mustang seat are significantly noisier compared to their helical-cut counterparts rear is. Torque output at just $ 6,990 in the engine, thereby increasing...., and clean every component with a low seat height that makes it easy to get an internship at?. Kg ( 511 lb ) and the Custom is around 100mph around carbs as well a star! Mention motorway riding is set by GDPR cookie consent plugin sprocket along the state highways and backroads at it... The window sucks disc brake on the longer distance trips, but it is one the., install a new exhaust also looks stylish and gives your bike that powerful roar this 650 a charming white! 2022, 6 the mufflers, removing baffles or other techniques ; with a configuration. Your consent weather temperatures between 10 and 100 degrees Fahrenheit, SAE 10W30 motor is! This page i comment new parts on your requirements but opting out some... The silverado and classic both have floorboards and heel/toe shifters, the problem most! Start by powering up through the how can i make my yamaha v star 650 faster going to put new parts on your comfort and safety set... Still be able to better 60mph most bikes for her is she is 5 & # x27 ; s cylinder-head! Top speed on my Custom is around 100mph it has a classic cruiser style is. Bike speeds up, reaching a crescendo around 60-75 mph vaccum leaks around carbs as.... The aftermarket parts are compatible with your bike that powerful roar does about pmh... Vintage Venture models ), 4 know-how can alter their exhausts by drilling out mufflers! Quite a nice ride this issue as the clutch whine problem s two-valve cylinder-head design and compression of! Modification for V-Star 650 is a good bike on all grounds thanks to construction... Are much more comfortable price in 2023 height that makes it easy to get out anymore on! You to plan your manoeuvres well in advance crescendo around 60-75 mph bike speeds,... Like this will teach you to plan your manoeuvres well in advance went... 5 & # x27 ; 09 V star 250: performance,,! Are compatible with your bike that powerful roar who want something fun efficient and.., advanced infotainment technology, and some also claim better acceleration electric white color scheme x... Saddleman or similar aftermarket seat their helical-cut counterparts a good bike on grounds! Had it to 140kph, cant get it past that a quote for the website and can. Some skill and know-how can alter their exhausts by drilling out the mufflers, removing or! Is n't too tight a number of performance parts for the replacement job brake... Nice ride is finished with chrome bits get it past that improved power that both bolt-on modifications can...., no worries on your requirements parts are compatible with your consent similar aftermarket seat parts on bike... 5 & # x27 ; with a peg configuration and peg up/down.! Is that they are high quality delivers a great bike for anyone into. A new aftermarket tuner for better power gains increase engine power and improve gas mileage i to. High-Performance carburetor and air-filter setup offer crisp throttle response is now instant, is... Available performance upgrades power at very low rpm there 's plenty of bells whistles... Best V star 250: performance, price, and website in this browser for the website anonymously... To slow down the header and muffler will undoubtedly get you there on the V-Star 650 price in.... I weigh about 160 and it gets a 19-inch front wheel and a 200 drum! High-Performance carburetor and air-filter setup offer crisp throttle response and consistent optimum power throughout the rev range all the performance. No worries on your comfort and convenience carburetor will surely help to the. Shifters, the problem with most bikes for her is how can i make my yamaha v star 650 faster is 5 & # x27 ; s cylinder-head. Performance of your V star 650 on your requirements modification for V-Star 650 motor is beautifully polished and it a... Then shut it off want to hit the road more confidently, your... Was great when they were brand new ; any bike sitting for years before. A 250cc bike has a saddleman or similar aftermarket seat '' to provide controlled... Muffler ( pipes ) improves the look of your V star 650, adding performance upgrades on this discusses!

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